NewStats: 3,264,366 , 8,183,482 topics. Date: Tuesday, 10 June 2025 at 06:46 PM 1a5h5l

pansophist:


No, China will not sign a similar accord, it is completely out of the question. The precedence are so overwhelming, I cant list them all.

You are referring to a country that fought and chased the US army back to the 38th parallel line in Korea, defeating the US decisively. China did this just a year after finishing its civil war that lasted for 20 years, and left the whole country devastated.

Then after it was itted to the UN, it told the US to get out of Taiwan and close its bases, and the US complied.

A country that have shot down numerous US spy aircrafts since the 50's, and crashed their submarines in chinese water.

In Alaska summit 2021, Chinese told the US that they cannot negotiate from a position of strength.

When the whole world were scared to trade with Iran or other sanctioned countries, the Chinese ignored US sanctions and just traded with who they want.

You are talking about a country that has a larger economy than the US (The Chinese just let the US have that crown of the largest economy, but everyone understands the US have been sured).

China has nuclear weapon, and advanced hypersonic misses the US DO NOT HAVE. China has 1.4B people.



I can go on and on, but China is not a country to bully around. China will never acquiesce or appease the US, it is completely out of the questions. I cannot think of an historical instances where the Chinese bowed to the US.

China's technique have always been playing lowkey, not escalating and responding proportionately to US attacks. But it will not be bullied.

In 1949 during the declaration of the founding of PRC, Mao made it clear that the Chinese have stood up, and NEVER again they will be exploited by foreign powers.

This was when China was so broke, that their leaders travelled in horses. But now? its too late.

The tarrifs are now 104%. It's morning in East Asia. I expected a retaliation, but the problem is that this will shift Chinese goods or other nations who will be antsy as those goods will compete with their manufacturers. Meanwhile, Trump is willing to negotiate with other countries starting from allied vassal nations like Japan and South Korea. A hunch I've within me is that he will seek any country willing to negotiate with the US to bar Chinese investments, factories and goods.

A new tariff of 125%. Just a day after. Another morning in East Asia.

I expect a retaliation from China. I see this ballooning to 200 - 250% in the coming days. We might even see 300% tariffs from both sides.

Nevertheless, I see the Chinese winning this or coming out victorious, although with scars here and there. Trump did worse to Huawei. It struggled at the beginning, but it has bounced back.

China will win this, and my bet is on the Chinese.

Gerrard59:
A new tariff of 125%. Just a day after. Another morning in East Asia.

I expect a retaliation from China. I see this ballooning to 200 - 250% in the coming days. We might even see 300% tariffs from both sides.

Nevertheless, I see the Chinese winning this or coming out victorious, although with scars here and there. Trump did worse to Huawei. It struggled at the beginning, but it has bounced back.

China will win this, and my bet is on the Chinese.

China has the industry, manufacturing, money, smart population, most patriotic, largest trading partner to most countries, motivated by survival, and have prepared for seven years.

Trump assumes China does not know its strength, when in reality, The US is like a baby sitting on China's lap. I can think of a thousand card China have to beat the US to stupor, but China being a civilisation of wisdom will not overstep, and can regulate itself.

Imagine thinking you can go toe-to-toe with a 5000 years old civilization that created gunpowder, paper, printing, wheelbarrow, seismograph, silk, kites, the abacus, acupuncture, and porcelain. Only the US is capable of behaving so condescendingly towards someone who clearly outclasses them.

A wannabe empire versus time-tested empire lol. The US picked the wrong enemy.

pansophist:


China has the industry, manufacturing, money, smart population, most patriotic, largest trading partner to most countries, motivated by survival, and have prepared for seven years.

Trump assumes China does not know its strength, when in reality, The US is like a baby sitting on China's lap. I can think of a thousand card China have to beat the US to stupor, but China being a civilisation of wisdom will not overstep, and can regulate itself.

Imagine thinking you can go toe-to-toe with a 5000 years old civilization that created gunpowder, paper, printing, wheelbarrow, seismograph, silk, kites, the abacus, acupuncture, and porcelain. Only the US is capable of behaving so condescendingly towards someone who clearly outclasses them.

A wannabe empire versus time-tested empire lol. The US picked the wrong enemy.

Mumu

Of china is great,why do you see them in every country like mushrooms?
People that japa more thzn Nigerians are the people you hail as better than USA.

Not surprised because most men love fascist or authoritarian(masked as conservative) countries

Tightpussy2024:

Mumu

Of china is great,why do you see them in every country like mushrooms?
People that japa more thzn Nigerians are the people you hail as better than USA. Not surprised because most men love fascist or authoritarian(masked as conservative) countries

I am curious, when you bash men like this, I ask, don't you have men in your private lives? This applies to the dem alpha males. This is why extremes are not good because hey, they are extremes.

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As for China, even prominent anti-China Western media outlets have itted that the Chinese have sured the US in most aspects of development. I am interested in only the US because any country that sures it has sured the entire West. Yes, we have Chinese emigrating, but that is the bane of a highly populated country, not necessarily a China thing. And even regarding migration, the Chinese are not so desperate as the Indians or we Nigerians. They are more selective these days, even though we have a few in the Darien Gap. I am not surprised you , purportedly, the West since most women, especially from Anglophone countries or exposed to Western media, fantasised about the region. But from a geopolitical and economic point of view, the rise of China has benefitted many African countries. I am concerned about the continent as I am an African. China's rise has provided technical expertise, much more affordable loans, and affordable products for many Africans. Without Chinese affordable industrial equipment, there would not be many factories across the continent. Without Chinese affordable telephones and telecommunications equipment, many Africans would not access the Internet as we do. Without Chinese loans, there wouldn't be functioning railway lines in many African countries. There is still more to gain from the relationship with the Chinese, but so far, it has been great considering no one forces African countries to be so indebted to any bank or change their laws before being assisted.

Gerrard59:

I am curious, when you bash men like this, I ask, don't you have men in your private lives? This applies to the dem alpha males. This is why extremes are not good because hey, they are extremes.

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As for China, even prominent anti-China Western media outlets have itted that the Chinese have sured the US in most aspects of development. I am interested in only the US because any country that sures it has sured the entire West. Yes, we have Chinese emigrating, but that is the bane of a highly populated country, not necessarily a China thing. And even regarding migration, the Chinese are not so desperate as the Indians or we Nigerians. They are more selective these days, even though we have a few in the Darien Gap. I am not surprised you , purportedly, the West since most women, especially from Anglophone countries or exposed to Western media, fantasised about the region. But from a geopolitical and economic point of view, the rise of China has benefitted many African countries. I am concerned about the continent as I am an African. China's rise has provided technical expertise, much more affordable loans, and affordable products for many Africans. Without Chinese affordable industrial equipment, there would not be many factories across the continent. Without Chinese affordable telephones and telecommunications equipment, many Africans would not access the Internet as we do. Without Chinese loans, there wouldn't be functioning railway lines in many African countries. There is still more to gain from the relationship with the Chinese, but so far, it has been great considering no one forces African countries to be so indebted to any bank or change their laws before being assisted.

Oh,so men are the only ones permitted to make generalisations ba?
Any country practicing patriarchy and is strict on LGBTQ and women is always idolized by men.

Countries that hammer on restoring "masculinity" are embraced as good morally upright countries.

I don't have any problem if you call those countries utopia.

E no concern me.

My own is,use good metrics and yard sticks.
Alot of migrants(especially illegals) are Chinese. Everywhere they are. You can't see a danish or Norwegian illegal immigrants wiping bum bum in care taking jobs,so how can Chinese that you even find in aba markets trying to sell George wrappers under hot sun belong to the greatest country?

The pant-sophist is an anti+west person. He will soon call Bangladesh the new utopia just because their women cover up

"Whether the West likes the Chinese model or not isn't relevant. If we don't match China in education, industrialization, tech we are left behind. They are outworking us and therefore successful. No one has any inherent right to trade surpluses. It's like the Olympics: the hardest working athletes win"

"his article felt very weird. It seems to be warning about an impending disaster. But the truth is, it has happened in many countries already. Take, for example, Saudi Arabia, where we have cheap GAC and Changan cars flooding the market, depriving quality and brands like Toyota and Volkswagen of the middle class. A lot of my friends recently bought Chinese vehicles which have shorter waiting times and better technologies (cool features) at way cheaper prices. Now, even if the quality of some of these cars is debatable, the price they come with justifies it. You can now buy 2 cars in 15 years than 1 before. Basically, the entire sector has been transformed into something like a fast fashion market by being flooded with cheap, replaceable products. Not many countries in the world can compete with China in of industrial or technical capabilities, especially in manufacturing. I think tariffs are not just about the trade deficit, but, to stop China ripping off the rest of the world. Because, while globalisation looks good for brands and developing economies, the truth is that advanced economies take a hit even if it means affordability"

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Both comments got my attention when I read this article (see below) about how Chinese made goods will flood the world's markets (ex-USA) as a result of the tariffs. From the other comment section, it is clear that the West cannot out-do China's manufacturing prowess. Not just how to make things, but also how to quickly sell and do so in an enchanting manner. Let's not forget that China enjoyed almost a trillion dollar surplus as of last year and still enjoyed more based on recently published data.

People have to come to the realisation that this century is that of the Chinese. These people are roaring machines and do their job diligently. It is time to ask them "how una dey do am?" rather than try to antagonise them every eke market day.

See here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/07/business/china-manufacturing-exports-trump-tariffs.html

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In another article, this time about the biotech industry in the US - the world's most profitable and biggest, there are fears that highly skilled jobs could be lost and an entire industry could die off as a result of China's manufacturing and now soaring biotech research and innovative strengths. Some excerpts from the article:

"Predictably, the number of drugs in development in China has surged. In 2014, Chinese companies had fewer than 500 drugs in development, a far cry from the nearly 6,000 drugs that US companies had in development that year, according to the industry publication Endpoints. Fast forward a decade. By 2024, China had experienced massive growth, boasting more than 6,000 drugs in development. Meanwhile, the United States peaked at more than 9,000 drugs in development in 2022 and has dipped slightly since then."

"A key reason that American companies work with Chinese labs is that they have scientists who are on staff and ready to go. That means, Voren said, a company “can immediately get work started and make progress,” rather than “building your own lab and spending six months to hire people.”"

"Tim Opler, a managing director at Stifel, a New York-based investment bank, marveled that China’s biotech ramp-up is happening at the very moment that our government is slashing for scientists.
Opler said some biotech investors have historically believed that Boston sits at the epicenter of innovation, and China just copies our breakthroughs. The thinking goes like this, he said: “Here in Boston, we’re next to The Broad, we’re next to MIT, we’ve got Harvard.” But after traveling to China in March, Opler concluded: “That view is no longer accurate. In a very short period of time, you’re seeing Chinese companies move at lightning speed into areas of high innovation in the biopharmaceutical industry.”"

"In a conversation with a CEO who makes an ingredient for aspirin, Opler asked if he was worried about tariffs. The CEO laughed and told Opler: “If it was a 100 percent tariff, it wouldn’t matter. It is so inefficient to make [an ingredient] in the United States, the tariff could be 200 percent, and it would be more efficient for me to make it in China."

See here: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2025/04/14/business/biotech-boston-kendall-square-jobs-drugs-labs/

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This is the Chinese Century. The earlier everyone gets used to it, the better.

Pansophist,

Do you see China changing its industrial strategy (since it's the EU that complained) and why is the West so much interested in it? It's not like they can out-do or produce the quantity of goods the Chinese manufacture.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-told-by-eu-business-body-to-overhaul-its-industrial-policy?embedded-checkout=true

Gerrard59:
Pan.sophist,

Do you see China changing its industrial strategy (since it's the EU that complained) and why is the West so much interested in it? It's not like they can out-do or produce the quantity of goods the Chinese manufacture.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-told-by-eu-business-body-to-overhaul-its-industrial-policy?embedded-checkout=true

Economic orthodoxy is having its reality check.

As we know, theories in the hard sciences are more ironclad. 1+1 = 2. That's true anywhere and whenever.
Economic theories, in comparison, are relatively more malleable.

Contemporary economic thought has painted a very rosy picture.
Concepts like comparative advantage, free trade, market forces have advanced an hypothesis that global adoption of Harvard and Chicago economic ideals will culminate in a win-win utopia.

But Western definition of utopia is very different from the Global South's definition and they're having a hard time accepting that.
Furthermore, the goals espoused by their economic thesis are completely antithetical to their geopolitical interests.

To illustrate, China is playing by rules established by the West. Everything from protectionism, espionage, to state-driven industrial policy have been or are currently being implemented to some degree by the West in their respective jurisdictions.
China is also advancing from an agrarian economy to a high-tech industrialized economy. Ceteris paribus, China should be heralded as a success story of capitalism. Like the Asian Tigers were.

But China is a little too adept at the game.

The West is fine selling a dream of what can happen when you do everything right. They are eager to pontificate about self-destructive moves like corruption and underinvestment in health/education that appear to stymie the progress of third-world countries.
But they are beginning to realize that if everyone does everything right, their primacy will end and the perks they've treated as a given will cease or be severely curtailed.

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To put this in perspective, the US and the EU do not want competition to Boeing and Airbus.
They do not want Russia, China, and Brazil to have their own civilian airliners that'll edge out their planes in the global marketplace and result in lost sales to the tunes of tens of billions of dollars.

Competition is only good in areas where they have an objective lead or few if any competitors.
In highly profitable fields that stat-pad their productivity metrics, they absolutely do not want to test free market principles.

Outsourcing was a test run. Economists in the 80s and 90s convinced the politicos that when you outsource, the company that outsources gets richer (higher profit margin). The country it is outsourced to gets richer (more wealth generation) and will use this wealth to buy Western products. A textbook win-win. As to the question of job loss, the theory was that increased efficiency + innovation will drive job growth in more profitable fields.
Less manual labor; more knowledge economy labor.

On paper, it was perfect.
But the test run was a disaster.
The West didn't get much from the economic theory that seemed perfect at the time.
The companies, their stakeholders, and the political class certainly benefited a ton.
But the new knowledge economy is in shambles because first the new technical roles could be outsourced as well. Once you get the ball rolling, it's hard to stop. Outsourcing and offshoring hard labor just gave the companies the expertise, precedence, incentive, and justification to properly outsource technical jobs without a steep learning curve.
Second, technical roles that were not outsourced can also be filled locally with brilliant immigrants that'll take a lower pay.
Third, the native populace got hosed, their locales were decimated, and they are understandably now seeking retribution. Unfortunately, all the political class has is scapegoating China.
Lastly, the West lost its unipolar global order because China and the global south countries that benefitted from this gambit now have the geopolitical leverage to object to Western patently unfair practices and demands.
A bonus drawback is that they've lost critical industrial capacity while paradoxically gifting it on a plate to China and co.

So of course, the West is kvetching.
The US in particular which is the Hegemony de facto leader is threatened and wants a course change.
The Europeans may have issues with how the US is going about it because they are not being coddled, but they're not fundamentally opposed to it. Their generous welfare states, strong labor protections, and relative wealth disparity relies on the continued existence of an economic order where they're near the top of the echelon with as little effort required.

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China for its part, I'm sure, has anticipated the West calling timeout when the game isn't going in its favor any more.
By their antecedences, China makes policy adjustments where necessary very quickly and with precision within an overarching strategy. But changes for things as consequential as industrial strategy or geopolitical military shifts are not habitually done without extensive contemplation.

China has all the cards though.

Change is a constant. And China does need to make inevitable adjustments at some point.
If you can outproduce anything that is valuable and you don't have a prolific consumerist market, who the hell will have the capacity to buy the stuff you produce? One has to earn to spend.

Off the top of my head, there will essentially have to be trade agreements on market access, some degree of market-driven economic policy, some fundamental switch in Chinese consumerism.

However, there should be a commensurate increase in China's profile in global economic, geopolitical, and military decision making; and China has not given the impression that they're bent on forcing wholesale changes on a quick timeframe.

For instance, if China is making changes to its industrial strategy, then Bretton Woods organizations and Western-led initiatives like the BIS should be heavily reformed, abolished, or have their work replicated by China/Global South friendly alternatives.
China has tried to adopt a more methodical approach in hopes of a smooth transition. But if the West is hurriedly pushing to unilateral break and change things, China specifically has to push for a holistic restructuring.

What's more likely to happen though is that China will seek to navigate Trump's term with as little trade adjustments as possible. It will sign deals, but these are not going to be materially different from the dozens of deals they've done in the past. However, as we found out during Biden's term; they can't kick the can much further. China has taken great pains to appear as a gentle giant, but the dragon has to bare its teeth and breathe fire at some point.

And no, a couple of rare earth and Hollywood movie restrictions is nothing. China is capable of much more.

-Lord

LordAdam16:


China has all the cards though. Change is a constant. And China does need to make inevitable adjustments at some point.
If you can outproduce anything that is valuable and you don't have a prolific consumerist market, who the hell will have the capacity to buy the stuff you produce? One has to earn to spend.

Off the top of my head, there will essentially have to be trade agreements on market access, some degree of market-driven economic policy, some fundamental switch in Chinese consumerism.

This is true. From this article (see below), the Chinese literally produce every industrial good of sort and do so at the cheapest price. If China produces everything and sells, how would their buyers gain money to continue buying them? The report that the Indonesian textile manufacturer that generated a billion dollar plus in revenue five years ago only to declare bankruptcy recently tells a lot. So, the Chinese have two options:

- Buy a lot of finished goods from others as much as you sell to them.
- Set up factories in other countries to sell to them. So rather than target the US market from Indonesia or Vietnam, set up factories in either country to target the domestic market.

The article below shows how it is difficult to compete with China on price and supply chain linkage. The dominance is staggering. So, I see why some developing countries are antsy as well. China has to consume more finished goods from other countries. However, if some don't want to sell to them their major finished goods such as the Netherlands (ASML), then China should develop its own etching machines and sell to the rest of the world. The concept by BYD in Brazil and Mexico are good examples of this strategy. When solar s are banned from being imported into Nigeria, Chinese manufacturers should set up factories in the country to produce and sell within the domestic and wider West African markets.

It boasts of being the only country with industries across all categories in the United Nations industrial classification system — “a country with a complete industrial chain”, cites Wang Yiwei, the director of Renmin University of China’s Institute of International Affairs.

“China can produce everything, from matches to rockets, from satellites to MSG (monosodium glutamate), from nuts to aircraft carriers. … Whatever China decides to produce, its price will become cheap as cabbages.”

See here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/cna-insider/southeast-asia-manufacturers-trump-tariff-war-us-china-asean-5071786

However, there should be a commensurate increase in China's profile in global economic, geopolitical, and military decision making; and China has not given the impression that they're bent on forcing wholesale changes on a quick timeframe. For instance, if China is making changes to its industrial strategy, then Bretton Woods organizations and Western-led initiatives like the BIS should be heavily reformed, abolished, or have their work replicated by China/Global South friendly alternatives.

What's more likely to happen though is that China will seek to navigate Trump's term with as little trade adjustments as possible. It will sign deals, but these are not going to be materially different from the dozens of deals they've done in the past. However, as we found out during Biden's term; they can't kick the can much further. China has taken great pains to appear as a gentle giant, but the dragon has to bare its teeth and breathe fire at some point.

Also very true as China needs to be given seats at global decision making bodies and its views need to be respected.

Gerrard59:

This is true. From this article (see below), the Chinese literally produce every industrial good of sort and do so at the cheapest price. If China produces everything and sells, how would their buyers gain money to continue buying them? The report that the Indonesian textile manufacturer that generated a billion dollar plus in revenue five years ago only to declare bankruptcy recently tells a lot. So, the Chinese have two options:

- Buy a lot of finished goods from others as much as you sell to them.
- Set up factories in other countries to sell to them. So rather than target the US market from Indonesia or Vietnam, set up factories in either country to target the domestic market.

The article below shows how it is difficult to compete with China on price and supply chain linkage. The dominance is staggering. So, I see why some developing countries are antsy as well. China has to consume more finished goods from other countries. However, if some don't want to sell to them their major finished goods such as the Netherlands (ASML), then China should develop its own etching machines and sell to the rest of the world. The concept by BYD in Brazil and Mexico are good examples of this strategy. When solar s are banned from being imported into Nigeria, Chinese manufacturers should set up factories in the country to produce and sell within the domestic and wider West African markets.

It boasts of being the only country with industries across all categories in the United Nations industrial classification system — “a country with a complete industrial chain”, cites Wang Yiwei, the director of Renmin University of China’s Institute of International Affairs.

“China can produce everything, from matches to rockets, from satellites to MSG (monosodium glutamate), from nuts to aircraft carriers. … Whatever China decides to produce, its price will become cheap as cabbages.”

See here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/cna-insider/southeast-asia-manufacturers-trump-tariff-war-us-china-asean-5071786

Exactamundo!

For this and a few other reasons, I am in favor of trade deals.
WW2 is far out in the past. We've rebuilt global industrial capacity.
At the outset, unbridled competition was fine because there were very few players.
It's different now.

Bangladesh's economy relies heavily on shirt, sweater, and suits export. To the tune of $30B.
If it wanted, China could set up a BYD style colossal factory for that product category, stack it full of robots and personnel.
In three quarters, Bangladesh will be in a recession.

We also cannot have protectionism become the dominant tool for addressing trade concerns.
All countries have to sell. Thus, it's better to sit in a board room and hash a deal. Than have the whole, you can't sell your stuff here, but can you buy my stuff.

One would think the BRICS+ forum would take the lead on trade policy coordination that take archaic instruments like the WTO out of the equation or reduce their relevance. But like in many other areas, they're moving incredibly slow.

The two solutions you shared are excellent.
But they have to occur within the purview of something akin to a trade deal. So agreements can be enforced, the deal can be reviewed as conditions change, and there are dispute mechanisms to resolve conflict in expectations.

On the West choosing not to trade with China.
They consider the fall of the Soviet Union without a hot war their pièce de résistance.
They want to replicate it with China.
They've telegraphed it for the past decade. The term "decoupling" is all the rage. But decoupling and containment were floated under Obama.

The West is still operating under the notion that they handed China the keys to the kingdom.
So they're withdrawing what they assume is their assist in hopes that it throttles or kneecaps China.
The West will not consciously opt to "coexist" with China until it is convinced China can stay on top without access to its market, technology, frameworks, and what not.

Also very true as China needs to be given seats at global decision making bodies and its views need to be respected.

China needs to demand it though.
China has mostly coasted by staying under the radar, hoping not to draw undue attention, and persistently attempting to reassure the West that it is not gunning for world domination. Sun Tzu style evasion.
Xi has several options. But if he wanted to flip the script and start making civilizational-upending moves, now is as good a time as any to start.

But again, I repeat, I don't expect to see any of that from Xi.
For one, Trump will be politically neutered by mid next year when it begins to emerge as a consensus that the House is returning to democrat control. So there's really no use expending valuable arrows in the quiver when your opponent's stamina is in question.
Still, as I said, Xi can't kick the can down the road much further. Whoever comes next will most likely not abandon the spirit of Trump's economic aggression. So there's a 5 year deadline on an answer to the all important question: What will China do about the US?

Interestingly, multipolarism implied that the US will be allowed to retain its influence and primacy in its Hemisphere, and will be treated as a partner on issues of global importance.
But America's fatalistic belligerence has to be inciting suggestions to revisit that in Beijing.

-Lord

I wonder why these jobs aren't coming to Nigeria considering we speak better English than Indians, we're an oil producing nation, better timezone and there a lot of Nigerians in the Texas area (can't they influence it)? Okay, let's assume Nigeria has one issue or the other, what about South Africa, after all it got great universities? https://www.wsj com/business/energy-oil/big-oil-is-offshoring-its-prized-engineering-jobs-to-india-2e487fd0

Meanwhile, Chinese investors are pouring in hundreds of millions to billions of dollars into the Nigerian economy.

cc: RodgersAkpafu; GloriousGbola; LordAdam16; IbeOkehie

Gerrard59:
I wonder why these jobs aren't coming to Nigeria considering we speak better English than Indians, we're an oil producing nation, better timezone and there a lot of Nigerians in the Texas area (can't they influence it)? Okay, let's assume Nigeria has one issue or the other, what about South Africa, after all it got great universities? https://www.wsj com/business/energy-oil/big-oil-is-offshoring-its-prized-engineering-jobs-to-india-2e487fd0

Meanwhile, Chinese investors are pouring in hundreds of millions to billions of dollars into the Nigerian economy.

cc: RodgersAkpafu; GloriousGbola; LordAdam16; IbeOkehie

Indians are willing slaves for the most bit
Take it how you want
But that's my honest to God take

In my uni, I see how they work and the eye service they do, a typical Nigerian(or Chinese for that matter) isn't cut out for that

I'll rather have Chinese than Indians

Though to the Indian govt credit, they have for over two decades designed their economy to service the cheap labour needs of western economies
Their nepotism of when one man enter somewhere, they open the door for others to enter as well, as nothing nothing is in India also helps (something Nigerians specifically and Africans in general suck at)

Chinese is a big risk because before you know it, they will replicate and do it much better than you

That's my take on the matter

RodgersAkpafu:


Indians are willing slaves for the most bit
Take it how you want
But that's my honest to God take

In my uni, I see how they work and the eye service they do, a typical Nigerian(or Chinese for that matter) isn't cut out for that

I'll rather have Chinese than Indians

They are very very very good at identifying where they can cuts costs.

They are also cunning as fk

Nigerians have nothing on Indians in the wayo dept

GloriousGbola:




They are very very very good at identifying where they can cuts costs.

They are also cunning as fk

Nigerians have nothing on Indians in the wayo dept

You know them well
That's how they ruined some American companies with their rubbish

Gerrard59:
I wonder why these jobs aren't coming to Nigeria considering we speak better English than Indians, we're an oil producing nation, better timezone and there a lot of Nigerians in the Texas area (can't they influence it)? Okay, let's assume Nigeria has one issue or the other, what about South Africa, after all it got great universities? https://www.wsj com/business/energy-oil/big-oil-is-offshoring-its-prized-engineering-jobs-to-india-2e487fd0

Meanwhile, Chinese investors are pouring in hundreds of millions to billions of dollars into the Nigerian economy.

cc: Rodgers.Akpafu; Glorious.Gbola; Lord.Adam16; Ibe.Okehie

NL bot is on a rampage.
My last detailed comment was autodeleted.

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Competitive advantage is a thing.
Arizona is the top destination to set up chip fabs in the US. For chip design, go to California.
India has cemented its control of the global back office industry.
If Nigeria wants a piece of the pie, we'll have to do things that should have been done a decade ago.
Applies to South Africa as well.

To be fair, it's a glaring opportunity.
I don't think people are deliberately leaving money on the table, be they Diasporans or company execs.
If someone breaks the mold, the floodgates will open.

The obvious question is "Why has no one dipped their toe in"?
A forum comment would not do it justice.
Take Andela as a case study. It should be our TCS.
There is zero chance that no one at Andela or d with Andela floated, "Why not keep the engineers on our payroll and be a sub-contractor to Western conglomerates"? The basic business case is not rocket science.

I could cover some of the reasons, but I'll essentially be screaming into the void.
Security is right at the top.
You have 1000 staff. Say 10% are bad eggs. 100 Nigerians motivated to wreck your operation is a biblical pestilence.
I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion and inevitable. But the risk alone will send you to an ICU.
To combat this, you'll have to become deliberately inefficient. A lot of the companies with GCCs are in sensitive sectors.
The math does not work if we cannot be cheaper, more productive, and more secure than the Indian behemoths.
You talked about diasporans leading the charge. Well, every one of them has horror stories playing in the Nigerian market. Some have PTSD.
So it's not a mystery that no one is eager to take the plunge. Tomato farming became a debacle. Tomato farming.
Let's just say opening an outfit to sub-contract to the likes of Chevron, Boeing, Roche, and Goldman Sachs while somehow outcompeting the Indians who've been at this for decades will be quite the undertaking.

I'll wrap up by saying all is not lost.
There are Nigerian firms in the BPO industry. We have a smattering of call center operations.
Perhaps, with time we'll move up the value chain.
BPO is the largest private employer in the Philippines. So it's not like India is the big bad wolf.
The opportunity exists and the West is not blameless. But Nigeria has simply not done enough to leverage the opportunity.

-Lord

RodgersAkpafu:


Indians are willing slaves for the most bit
Take it how you want
But that's my honest to God take In my uni, I see how they work and the eye service they do, a typical Nigerian(or Chinese for that matter) isn't cut out for that. I'll rather have Chinese than Indians

Good gracious Lord, what do we have here?

I never imagined this day would come, but here we are.

Though to the Indian govt credit, they have for over two decades designed their economy to service the cheap labour needs of western economies. Their nepotism of when one man enter somewhere, they open the door for others to enter as well, as nothing nothing is in India also helps (something Nigerians specifically and Africans in general suck at)

The bold reminds me of a comment I made that as Black people or specifically Black Africans, we will be fairly assessed by a White westerner (mostly Anglophones) and an East Asian compared to other racial groups in of employment or academic opportunities.

[sub][/sub]
Thanks to everyone for their takes.

LordAdam16:


NL bot is on a rampage.
My last detailed comment was autodeleted.

---

Competitive advantage is a thing.
Arizona is the top destination to set up chip fabs in the US. For chip design, go to California.
India has cemented its control of the global back office industry.
If Nigeria wants a piece of the pie, we'll have to do things that should have been done a decade ago.
Applies to South Africa as well.

To be fair, it's a glaring opportunity.
I don't think people are deliberately leaving money on the table, be they Diasporans or company execs.
If someone breaks the mold, the floodgates will open.

The obvious question is "Why has no one dipped their toe in"?
A forum comment would not do it justice.
Take Andela as a case study. It should be our TCS.
There is zero chance that no one at Andela or d with Andela floated, "Why not keep the engineers on our payroll and be a sub-contractor to Western conglomerates"? The basic business case is not rocket science.

I could cover some of the reasons, but I'll essentially be screaming into the void.
Security is right at the top.
You have 1000 staff. Say 10% are bad eggs. 100 Nigerians motivated to wreck your operation is a biblical pestilence.
I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion and inevitable. But the risk alone will send you to an ICU.
To combat this, you'll have to become deliberately inefficient. A lot of the companies with GCCs are in sensitive sectors.
The math does not work if we cannot be cheaper, more productive, and more secure than the Indian behemoths.
You talked about diasporans leading the charge. Well, every one of them has horror stories playing in the Nigerian market. Some have PTSD.
So it's not a mystery that no one is eager to take the plunge. Tomato farming became a debacle. Tomato farming.
Let's just say opening an outfit to sub-contract to the likes of Chevron, Boeing, Roche, and Goldman Sachs while somehow outcompeting the Indians who've been at this for decades will be quite the undertaking.

I'll wrap up by saying all is not lost.
There are Nigerian firms in the BPO industry. We have a smattering of call center operations.
Perhaps, with time we'll move up the value chain.
BPO is the largest private employer in the Philippines. So it's not like India is the big bad wolf.
The opportunity exists and the West is not blameless. But Nigeria has simply not done enough to leverage the opportunity.

-Lord

You have 1000 staff. Say 10% are bad eggs. 900 Nigerians motivated to wreck your operation is a biblical pestilence.

fixed

this is what i think the issue is. Indians are just as crooked as Nigerians, maybe even more so, but they are not crude and raw and open with it. i believe they also understand that you don't kill then goose that lays the golden egg. it sounded like a silly parable at the time, but it is actually what a lot of nigerians do. they loot the company to death with no plan for where their next job is coming from,. eat for the moment.

the average nigerians also enter employment with the aim of stealing and of circumventing processes. some years back, i called an uber. the man started telling me he did not want to go the route, but we should do 'offline' . basically, he had used his company platform to secure a customer, and then he wanted to cheat hius employer out of the customer. we se this happen alot in business as well, where an employee or unscrupulous client will approach each other, to do a job at lower cost while using the employers resources. it is called 'being sharp' do this enough and company collapses and the 'sharp' employee is out of work and side hustle as he lacks the resources.

when this happend, i went to a thread populated by uber drivers on this platform to complain about the behavior. i expected that they would be against it. instead i was roundly and soundly cursed out as a broke pauper without a car

this is just uber . it is replicated across nigerian businesses - where people have an attitude of readiness to chop the employer to death.

add to this some stories in the industry of ceos ripping investors off. i witnessed one. the oyibo investors actually brought in their own cfo as oversight, but these people ran rings around him. the funny thing was everyone in the industry could see the scam, (inflated real estate costs) but the cfo could not. eventually the investors pulled out, and the company had to be taken over by nigerians and that was the end of a gravy train

as an aside, imho it is actually south africans who seem to have cracked the code for prospering in nigeria while sharing the prosperity with staff. indian run companies will proposer, but the staff - not so much

GloriousGbola:


fixed

this is what i think the issue is. Indians are just as crooked as Nigerians, maybe even more so, but they are not crude and raw and open with it. i believe they also understand that you don't kill then goose that lays the golden egg. it sounded like a silly parable at the time, but it is actually what a lot of nigerians do. they loot the company to death with no plan for where their next job is coming from,. eat for the moment.

the average nigerians also enter employment with the aim of stealing and of circumventing processes. some years back, i called an uber. the man started telling me he did not want to go the route, but we should do 'offline' . basically, he had used his company platform to secure a customer, and then he wanted to cheat hius employer out of the customer. we se this happen alot in business as well, where an employee or unscrupulous client will approach each other, to do a job at lower cost while using the employers resources. it is called 'being sharp' do this enough and company collapses and the 'sharp' employee is out of work and side hustle as he lacks the resources.

when this happend, i went to a thread populated by uber drivers on this platform to complain about the behavior. i expected that they would be against it. instead i was roundly and soundly cursed out as a broke pauper without a car

this is just uber . it is replicated across nigerian businesses - where people have an attitude of readiness to chop the employer to death.

add to this some stories in the industry of ceos ripping investors off. i witnessed one. the oyibo investors actually brought in their own cfo as oversight, but these people ran rings around him. the funny thing was everyone in the industry could see the scam, (inflated real estate costs) but the cfo could not. eventually the investors pulled out, and the company had to be taken over by nigerians and that was the end of a gravy train

as an aside, imho it is actually south africans who seem to have cracked the code for prospering in nigeria while sharing the prosperity with staff. indian run companies will proposer, but the staff - not so much

Had to be diplomatic and conservative.
To avoid the "demarketing Nigeria" accusation.
If 10% is a biblical pestilence; 90% is Armageddon.

Believe it or not, the caste system contributes to the Indians being able to put a lid on their wayo tendencies.
Observe how Nigerian low-skilled workers complain about Indian bosses. Think of that as a social convention.
It's akin to a natural disciplinary board. Woe betide you if you f*ck up an operation as a dalit or lower class.
Your bosses who are habitually upper class will come down on you with the fury of a thousand suns.
In fact, your daily interactions will give you an inkling of what awaits if you give them a reason to go ham.
And their society will at worse be indifferent. There'd be the recognition that you FA and it's FO time.

In addition, there is this instinctive deference and veneration of any semblance of authority.
To be fair, this is true of most Asians to a degree. But it is part of the social fabric in India.
Much of what Nigerians decry as eye service and excessive brownnosing by Indians in office politics is the natural byproduct of that system, flawed as it may be.
Also explains why they naturally will flood a company with compatriots. Social mobility is an Herculean task. So when you find an opportunity, that's your golden chance to bring in family, fellow caste , and even lower caste who'll cement your economic control and make no fuss. The boss or owner(s) that let you do that is a demi-god. Your demi-god. So there's no incentive to wreck the enterprise.
A Nigerian sees a thriving enterprise and visualizes lavish ceremonies, BBL baddies, spending spree. An Indian sees a thriving enterprise and visualizes improving the lives of his entire caste, the compounding economic effect, and the invaluable social benefit.

There's another aspect to this.
In Nigeria, a sibling steals from you and in the family meeting you'll be implored to let it go.
A gaggle of Nigerians with the "na where we dey work, we go chop" mindset is the most destructive force in the universe.
Western companies are products of high-trust societies. So it's a terrible match.
Nigerians are perfect as board pieces. Slot individually in any role, anywhere, and you have a model employee.
But a self-sustaining majority-staffed Nigerian outfit will achieve critical mass to be a menace to any company or industry on the planet.
Again, I'll repeat, this is not a foregone conclusion. But the elevated risk in itself is disqualifying.

Lastly, I agree with you that in some respect their crookedness is not "crude and raw and open".
This does not only apply to Indians. Westerners can be criminally-minded as well. Corruption is everywhere.
I'd use an analogy to state the difference.
Westerners will only steal ripe fruits through elaborate schemes.
Indians and several other third worlders might steal ripe fruits and unripe fruits they'll keep until they ripen.
Nigerians will steal all the fruits. Then fall the tree to use it as lumber/firewood. We fit even sell the land sef.

-Lord

GloriousGbola:

as an aside, imho it is actually south africans who seem to have cracked the code for prospering in nigeria while sharing the prosperity with staff. indian run companies will prosper, but the staff - not so much

South Africans are fine with some level of corruption.
As long as they hit their targets on repatriated profits, they're good.
An Indian would not accept that premise.

Still, I do think that on compensation and benefits, Africans (Nigerians, South Africans, et cetera) naturally adopt an approach that's closer to the Western model. Some Asian cultures have a fundamentally different take on that.

-Lord

LordAdam16:


NL bot is on a rampage.
My last detailed comment was autodeleted.

---

Competitive advantage is a thing.
Arizona is the top destination to set up chip fabs in the US. For chip design, go to California.
India has cemented its control of the global back office industry.
If Nigeria wants a piece of the pie, we'll have to do things that should have been done a decade ago.
Applies to South Africa as well.

To be fair, it's a glaring opportunity.
I don't think people are deliberately leaving money on the table, be they Diasporans or company execs.
If someone breaks the mold, the floodgates will open.

The obvious question is "Why has no one dipped their toe in"?
A forum comment would not do it justice.
Take Andela as a case study. It should be our TCS.
There is zero chance that no one at Andela or d with Andela floated, "Why not keep the engineers on our payroll and be a sub-contractor to Western conglomerates"? The basic business case is not rocket science.

I could cover some of the reasons, but I'll essentially be screaming into the void.
Security is right at the top.
You have 1000 staff. Say 10% are bad eggs. 100 Nigerians motivated to wreck your operation is a biblical pestilence.
I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion and inevitable. But the risk alone will send you to an ICU.
To combat this, you'll have to become deliberately inefficient. A lot of the companies with GCCs are in sensitive sectors.
The math does not work if we cannot be cheaper, more productive, and more secure than the Indian behemoths.
You talked about diasporans leading the charge. Well, every one of them has horror stories playing in the Nigerian market. Some have PTSD.
So it's not a mystery that no one is eager to take the plunge. Tomato farming became a debacle. Tomato farming.
Let's just say opening an outfit to sub-contract to the likes of Chevron, Boeing, Roche, and Goldman Sachs while somehow outcompeting the Indians who've been at this for decades will be quite the undertaking.

I'll wrap up by saying all is not lost.
There are Nigerian firms in the BPO industry. We have a smattering of call center operations.
Perhaps, with time we'll move up the value chain.
BPO is the largest private employer in the Philippines. So it's not like India is the big bad wolf.
The opportunity exists and the West is not blameless. But Nigeria has simply not done enough to leverage the opportunity.

-Lord

@ the bolded

@Gerrard59

Yesterday, Maxinomics put out a succinct video on China's spending.
Give it a watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1y0T3R7t3I

-Lord

LordAdam16:


Had to be diplomatic and conservative.
To avoid the "demarketing Nigeria" accusation.
If 10% is a biblical pestilence; 90% is Armageddon.

Believe it or not, the caste system contributes to the Indians being able to put a lid on their wayo tendencies.
Observe how Nigerian low-skilled workers complain about Indian bosses. Think of that as a social convention.
It's akin to a natural disciplinary board. Woe betide you if you f*ck up an operation as a dalit or lower class.
Your bosses who are habitually upper class will come down on you with the fury of a thousand suns.
In fact, your daily interactions will give you an inkling of what awaits if you give them a reason to go ham.
And their society will at worse be indifferent. There'd be the recognition that you FA and it's FO time.

In addition, there is this instinctive deference and veneration of any semblance of authority.
To be fair, this is true of most Asians to a degree. But it is part of the social fabric in India.
Much of what Nigerians decry as eye service and excessive brownnosing by Indians in office politics is the natural byproduct of that system, flawed as it may be.
Also explains why they naturally will flood a company with compatriots. Social mobility is an Herculean task. So when you find an opportunity, that's your golden chance to bring in family, fellow caste , and even lower caste who'll cement your economic control and make no fuss. The boss or owner(s) that let you do that is a demi-god. Your demi-god. So there's no incentive to wreck the enterprise.
A Nigerian sees a thriving enterprise and visualizes lavish ceremonies, BBL baddies, spending spree. An Indian sees a thriving enterprise and visualizes improving the lives of his entire caste, the compounding economic effect, and the invaluable social benefit.

There's another aspect to this.
In Nigeria, a sibling steals from you and in the family meeting you'll be implored to let it go.
A gaggle of Nigerians with the "na where we dey work, we go chop" mindset is the most destructive force in the universe.
Western companies are products of high-trust societies. So it's a terrible match.
Nigerians are perfect as board pieces. Slot individually in any role, anywhere, and you have a model employee.
But a self-sustaining majority-staffed Nigerian outfit will achieve critical mass to be a menace to any company or industry on the planet.
Again, I'll repeat, this is not a foregone conclusion. But the elevated risk in itself is disqualifying.

Lastly, I agree with you that in some respect their crookedness is not "crude and raw and open".
This does not only apply to Indians. Westerners can be criminally-minded as well. Corruption is everywhere.
I'd use an analogy to state the difference.
Westerners will only steal ripe fruits through elaborate schemes.
Indians and several other third worlders might steal ripe fruits and unripe fruits they'll keep until they ripen.
Nigerians will steal all the fruits. Then fall the tree to use it as lumber/firewood. We fit even sell the land sef.

-Lord

LordAdam16:
@Gerrard59

Yesterday, Maxinomics put out a succinct video on China's spending.
Give it a watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1y0T3R7t3I

-Lord

I will watch this later and get back. Anti-spam bot don deal with me tire.

With time, I believe China is going to reduce tariffs on some US goods just as Trump did his. The initial strongman behaviour will be mellowed in the coming days/weeks, as there are some US made goods that the Chinese haven't perfected their manufacturing. I could have written a much detailed post on this with links and screenshots, but the anti-spam bot has banned and hidden my posts so many times. Mods no dey help matters. To think there are sections with s whose last seen is 2022!

Seun no dey try with this website o

Gerrard59:
With time, I believe China is going to reduce tariffs on some US goods just as Trump did his. The initial strongman behaviour will be mellowed in the coming days/weeks, as there are some US made goods that the Chinese haven't perfected their manufacturing. I could have written a much detailed post on this with links and screenshots, but the anti-spam bot has banned and hidden my posts so many times. Mods no dey help matters. To think there are sections with s whose last seen is 2022!

Seun no dey try with this website o

Lol, you know full well China just announced reductions of her tarrifs on US

QuinQ:


Lol, you know full well China just announced reductions of her tarrifs on US

I saw that one, but the incoming ones, especially on aviation and pharmaceuticals, are where I presage the next easing. The one you posted was less than three days ago and centred on semiconductor chips.

Gerrard59:

I saw that one, but the incoming ones, especially on aviation and pharmaceuticals, are where I presage the next easing. The one you posted was less than three days ago and centred on semiconductor chips.

Well, you made it sound like you're making a prediction, when China has already announced intentions to reduce those tarrifs

QuinQ:


Well, you made it sound like you're making a prediction, when China has already announced intentions to reduce those tarrifs

It depends on how you see it, but after reading some articles, I foresee a reduction or waiver off some goods. So those media houses did the prediction before myself. Seeing medical equipment goes to say pharmaceuticals and aviation parts are up next.

Gerrard59:

It depends on how you see it, but after reading some articles, I foresee a reduction or waiver off some goods. So those media houses did the prediction before myself. Seeing medical equipment goes to say pharmaceuticals and aviation parts are up next.

Lol, you "foresee", when it is all over internet that companies are already being exempted from tarrifs

LordAdam16:
@Gerrard59

Yesterday, Maxinomics put out a succinct video on China's spending.
Give it a watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1y0T3R7t3I

-Lord

Long video but quite informative. Good YouTube channel too. Got this short from it.
One minute long:
https://youtube.com/shorts/loBncym73IA?si=Wvxx6l6BXUeIdst6

QuinQ:


Lol, you "foresee", when it is all over internet that companies are already being exempted from tarrifs

I am not a prophet and haven't come across those articles you posted. Also, if not for the anti-spam bot, I would have posted the links to the articles I read, which made me foresee a reduction of tariffs.